Dissecting a Frog: Ben Richardson

interview transcript

Luke:

Hello and welcome to Dissecting a Frog, a podcast about writing, performing, and producing comedy. It's part of Comedy Victoria and hosted by me, Luke Morris.

Today we talk to Ben Richardson, who is a comedian and an Auslan interpreter. So, this is a special episode as there'll be a transcript online at comedyvictoria.com.au.

If you look at the education tab, there's a list of resources there and in there will be a link to a printout copy of this interview. So, you can read it or you can give it to a friend to read.

Ben will tell us about growing up with Auslan as his first language and how that can be an advantage. There's things that he tells us about that the deaf community find funny, and as a general ruke want to consider if you're going to have a show translated into Auslan for the deaf community.

I know last year I had my show, An Introverts Guide to Extroverts, translated into Auslan with Ben. And even though I have slides in that show, there's more to it than just thinking about having visual cues and making the show accessible like that.

Ben's going to come to Ballarat to do some shows, also to Stratford at the Courthouse Theater there and the West Gippsland Art Centre for shows this year. So, we'll mention those dates, but you can also find those at the comedyvictoria.com.au website.

That's pretty much it. Let's get into it, and dissect the frog of Auslan interpreting for comedy with Ben Richardson.

I start by asking Ben what it's like to talk both in speech and in Auslan at the same time.

(Audio interlude: rim shot sound)

Ben:

It's called SimCom, and you're not supposed to do it technically because you can't do both English and Auslan at the same time because they're different grammars, different... It doesn't make sense, you can't. So, if you're doing both at the same time, you're ruining one of the languages.

Luke:

How did you get into sign language?

Ben:

Backstory is my mum's deaf. So, my first language is sign language because Mum made it that way, that's how it is. And so, I learned how to sign before I could speak, because it's a lot easier to sign Mum, like just tapping on your head, than it is to actually say the word Mum. So, technically sign language is my first language.

Luke:

It's really interesting because you do see kids trying to communicate through signs.

Ben:

Well, apparently you can teach kids from 10 months old to start signing, and if they master sign language at that age... Well, if they get a few basic signs at that age, it means you can kind of avoid the terrible twos because they can start signing and actually expressing themselves, which is why they have the tantrums at two, because they can't actually express themselves.

Luke:

Oh, because of the language barrier.

Ben:

Yeah. Yeah, because they haven't learned how to speak properly yet. But if they can sign, it stops all of it.

Luke:

Oh, that's amazing.

Ben:

And I noticed with my little nephews, because they can sign, because Mum made them sign, when they're getting a little heightened, you just get them to start signing, and it just changes where they are in their head, in their brain, and they just calm down because then they focus on the sign.

I'm not a parent, but it's great for parenting

Luke:

Yeah. I'm not a parent either, but that's a great window into helping language with kids.

So, I also know, just as a segue, helping language, you have a show called Deaf Bridges, to help bridge the gap between the deaf community and the hearing community. You're doing that through comedy. So, again, going to a backstory, why comedy? Where does the comedy interest come from?

Ben:

Yeah, I mean, I want to say obviously there are deaf comedians out there who do stuff. There's a great deaf English comedian. I forgot his name. John somebody, John Smith actually. And he's quite funny. It's very slapsticky and visual, obviously. And there are other coder comedians as well, Scottish and stuff. So the deaf have their own comedy scene. It's not much of a scene, I'll be honest, but I like comedy. My mom's quite funny. As a deaf woman, she does a lot of jokes and loves cartoons, comic books and strips like that. Deaf people love comic books. It's a visual form of comedy. And so, I got into them as a young age and stand-up comedy is just fun.

I tried it when I was young and because I was quite nervous at public speaking, and so I just talked about what I knew, which was sign language, that seemed to do quite well. And then now all of a sudden, I have to keep doing it.

But the deaf community is quite insular. They're quite cut off and they're quite a community in themselves. And it's very insular and it's hard to get into. So, because I was born as a... I'm a coder, which is a child of a deaf adult, so I'm already born into the deaf community. So, I've got that in, which helps a lot of hearing people get into it. And I think comedy's a good medium for that.

Yeah, I've had people come up to me after comedy shows and say, "Look, I've been trying to get into the deaf community. They're very hard. Unless you're a part of us, we don't want to know about it.” And so, coming to my comedy shows means that they get to hear about deaf culture, they get to meet deaf people who come to the show. They get to learn sign language. It's a little gateway.

Luke:

Yeah. Well, I have a question of how do you have the deaf community react because I know that having that experience, I've tried to communicate with them myself. It's probably very understandable to have a barrier. It's a different language as well.

Ben:

It is a different language. It's a different culture. I mean, a lot of people don't know that the deaf community is a culture in itself. They've got their own history, traditions, and language. And yeah, generally, my comedy's been quite well received by the deaf community, especially that last show, Deaf Bridges. But then my new show, Welcome to the Auslan Jungle. I did make the mistake of saying I'm teaching Auslan this time, and that gets the deaf community up in arms because they feel like they're the only ones that should teach, which is pretty right. But yeah, got to be careful as a hearing person teaching Auslan.

Luke:

Why is that? I ask that because I would imagine there's a lot of benefits to being hearing and teaching Auslan.

Ben:

Technically, they say only deaf people and coders, children of deaf adults, because that's our first language. We should be the end ones teaching Auslan because a lot of hearing people will go to a lesson and go, "Oh, this is great," and then get on social media and start signing and they do a wrong sign and then suddenly people see that wrong sign and start copying that wrong sign and it becomes the sign all of a sudden, and that's out of deaf people's control. But there's a lot of push for deaf people to be the only ones that teach sign language.

Luke:

I found that really interesting when you did signing for my show, which is An Introvert’s Guide to Extroverts, you said there were new words in that. We should probably dissect how you go about signing a show, because there's many steps I didn't understand that were things like, it's very hard to interpret as the show's going along. So, you asked for a script beforehand, which I was able to supply, which I imagine helps a lot because there were words that you had to create in Auslan.

Ben:

Yeah, yeah, because I mean Auslan is not a direct translation of English, so you don't just do English on your hands. You're not just doing each English word on your hands. You are interpreting it into a different language. And so, looking at a script, there'll always be a few words that don't have a direct translation. There'll always be a few phrases that don't make sense in Auslan that do make sense in English, especially puns. They're the worst.

Luke:

What do you do when you get puns?

Ben:

Well, here's one.

They've just said, "Please bear with me," or something like that. And you go, "But that's the bare." Bare sounds like the word for the animal bear, but it's also the word for be patient. Hearing people find that funny. Just laugh along.

Luke:

I love the way you said you do that sort of shortcut, just say they're going to find that funny and you move on.

Ben:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, deaf people get it. They've lived this their whole life. They get it.

Luke:

You forget that. I mean, I forget that.

Ben:

Yeah, yeah because you're coming from a hearing perspective. Hearing people really rely on hearing, obviously. It's a different world without it. I mean, I notice a lot of my deaf friends, they'll just notice stuff with their eyes that you don't even think about. They're like, "Oh yeah, stuff's going on over there." Wow, all right. I've been looking, I was listening for cues, but they're looking for stuff.

Luke:

Yeah, that's something I found very interesting when we talked about interpreting. You mentioned how it is a visual language, but not just so much in the hand gestures, but the facial expressions.

Ben:

It's a whole body language. Yeah. So, it's facial expressions, it's body language, it's all of those things. And there's a tone as well with the way you're using your hands. Are you sharp and pointed? That means you're angry. If you're more relaxed and casual with your hands, you're more comfortable with that.

Luke:

So, you can potentially sign sarcasm.

Ben:

Potentially.

Luke:

I'm not saying you have to do it or give me an example, but I'm just thinking in terms of expressing tone.

Ben:

Yeah. I mean, it's all facial expressions. You're being sarcastic. It's obvious in the face, and it's also in the hands as well. If you drop your hands after signing something, that's a bit of sarcasm, like well, duh.

Luke:

Yeah. Well, I found it interesting what you said with lots of visual jokes work for the deaf community. So, if there's images and cartoons and things like that, but you don't use a lot of that in your show.

Ben:

No, no, no. But I do use a lot of signs that deaf people get as being funny. My classic joke is the sign for Tasmania.

Luke:

Yes, yes.

Ben:

Deaf people relate to that story, because that's one of their jokes. They get it. That's funny visually. I mean, it's just explaining things through shapes that you use with your hands or miming out scenes, because miming is a big part of sign language. So, if you mine out a joke, that's funny rather than just explain English linguistically, this is why this is funny because of the pun or whatever, that's not as funny.

Luke:

So, originally you had Deaf Bridges, which is about explaining the difference. I guess Deaf Bridges is about explaining a bit of growing up and the differences you've discovered along the way.

Ben:

Yeah, yeah. Growing up as a coder, talking a bit more about deaf culture and talk about the language as well. It all sounds a bit like a tedious lecture now, but it is mostly jokes.

Luke:

Auslan has anecdotes. I know that from the show.

Ben:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, stuff that's happened is just funny. I mean, learning how to drive with my deaf Mum, that's just funny.

Luke:

And then Auslan Jungle is a bit more...

Ben:

I've sort of got a bit more linguistic here. This is all a bit more about the actual language of Auslan. It's more about teaching, but I'm hesitant to say the word teaching because that gets people a bit bang around. But showing people signs and getting them to practice with me and just talking about my experience with the language, rather than actually growing up with a deaf Mum and, yeah, being deaf in the community.

Luke:

So, what type of audience do you find you get?

Ben:

Auslan students traditionally, which is why I'm having the show in Collingwood because that's just across the road from the TAFE there. Which is the only place in Melbourne where you can learn Auslan because they amalgamated them all into that one center.

So, I get a lot of students coming across the road to my show, which is good. But again, this is another insight, because all of my shows are Auslan interpreted. So, I work with an Auslan interpreter on stage and because I am an Auslan interpreter, I know what they need and I work with them on stage.

Luke:

So, let's look back at that. I come to you saying, "Hey, can you interpret this show for me?" What's really helpful?

Ben:

The best thing you can do is give me a video of your show because that way I can play it and listen to your intonations, your tone, flow of the show, and I can just listen to it and practice interpreting while listening like I was there in real life. If you can't provide a video of the show, a script is also handy. So, then I could just skim through it, look for words and phrases that are going to be tricky, get ready to prepare rather than just be on the spot going, "How am I going to interpret that?"

I can prepare for those tricky bits. Yeah, failing that, give me some ideas of some of the other stuff you've done, because then I can look at your style and get a general idea of how it's going to go.

Luke:

And video is better than just audio, I imagine, because again, the visual language, you can see something from the...

Ben:

Yeah, but hearing people don't do much, they just talk. So, I don't need their video as much.

Luke:

It depends on the show? I know I have slides in my show and other people have different types of things.

Ben:

That can help.

Luke:

Yeah, particularly if at some point your audio has a long pause and then lots of laughter, you probably want to know what's happening on stage for that laughter.

Ben:

Yes. Actually, saying that what's even better than video is to come along to a rehearsal and practice while you rehearse. I do a lot of theater as well in Tasmania. I interpret a lot of theater shows, and they are much better to be there and actually practice with because you're in the environment, it's a different feel when you're on stage than it is to watching a video in your room.

Luke:

And also, I remember stage setup, you need a little spotlight on your corner of the stage.

Ben:

You need that spot. And it's also helpful when there's actors running around the room to know that there's going to be, in my case, a six-foot three big bloke standing where you usually do a slide or something.

Luke:

Got to sort out your blocking for that. Have you had problems with people? If you've got multiple acts on the stage, are there problems with communicating who's talking at any point?

Ben:

Yeah, that's hard. It just takes practice, I suppose. And I think I'm getting better at it because you hit a weakness of mind there. But what you're supposed to do is as one person speaks, you just tilt your body slightly one way, preferably the way they're facing on stage. And then when the other person speaks, you tilt as if you're coming from their direction. It's hard, and especially when there's quick dialogue and considering you're slightly behind a pace, because you've got to hear what they say first, then change that in your head to Auslan and then do it.

And then by then they're already on their next line, so you're doing it again. So, you're always slightly behind, which makes it even harder.

Luke:

Is there something you see that the deaf community find funny more than hearing community? I mean, obviously visual jokes, but if you're interpreting, are there things they appreciate?

Ben:

Dirty jokes. Yeah, that's the answer to that.

Luke:

So, something that’s quick and to the point.

Ben:

Quick to the point? No, they do like a good yarn. Like a nice long tale. They're all right with that. Well, I mean, I can't speak for the whole group, but generally a long tale is fine.

Luke:

Who's your inspirations in comedy?

Ben:

I love a good tale myself. I love a good storytelling comedian. Danny Bhoy, I always love, from Scotland. Danny Boy tells a great tale, a great story and all of that. And Kevin Bridges as well, he does good stories. And my dad's English and he brought me up on a diet of Monty Python and all of those old school English comedians, so I'm very biased in that direction.

Luke:

So, when you're writing, do you write in Auslan or do you write in English or does it sort of bleed into each other considering how you wind up delivering the show?

Ben:

Oh, now you got me thinking, I don't know.

Luke:

Well, I'm just thinking in terms of writing a story, lots of people who write a story... I tend to sit down and write a slab, and I'll just write something, then I'll edit it back. And as I'm editing back, I'm thinking about if there's a sentence that doesn't lead to a joke or push the story forward or something, what do I put in there?

Are you thinking about that structure and I'm imagining you, if you're writing a story, if you're editing or you're going back into it, you're then looking back saying, should I put a sign in here?

Ben:

A lot of my stories come from my job as an interpreter because so much funny stuff happens all the time and I'll make that story, bring it home and then write it out in English, I suppose. And then I would sign it as well. So, I'd sign it and then see how it looks in Auslan, see how it looks in English, and then merge the two together, I think.

Luke:

It's an interesting process.

Ben:

Yeah, but I mean, obviously then I just sit with them. You write the initial story and then you think about it, you sit with it, you practice it a few open mics, and that's the process. It develops, it gets better, or it gets chucked in a bin.

Luke:

Well, you're based in Tasmania. So, how does it go with testing material? You're Hobart based?

Ben:

Hobart, yeah. We've got an open mic night in Hobart and in Lonnie as well. So, if I want to make the 2-hour drive up to Launceston, I can always go there and test out stuff. And they're a great crowd in Lonnie as well. But in Hobart, we've essentially got, Colt Comedy run by the amazing Rob Braslin, which is your open mic night open to anybody. And so, you can try out your first lot of jokes, and then you've got Brewlab Comedy run by Aaron Maxwell, which is sort of your next tier, which you can try out new stuff, but you can also polish your other jokes that you're working on as well. Before then, you take it to Clubhouse, which is the more professional gig and you've got to get your ducks in a row before you get up there.

Luke:

So, you got your three tiers of beginning, middle, and end workshopping. And so, when you've got a new bit or something, do you approach writing a show as “I've just got these collection of stories?” Or do you think about the concept of the show before you start putting it together?

Ben:

Well, I'm one of those old-fashioned blokes. I walk around with a little notepad in my pocket, and so a story happens, something happens, and you go, "Well, that's funny, write it down." And then you come back to it later and you go, “Right, now I'm going to write,” pull out the notebook and just look through what I've got. And most of it's nonsense and doesn't make sense. Occasionally there's a winner there and I go, "Here you go. I'll basically show them that."

Luke:

So, you might expand on something based on what the story was?

Ben:

And flesh it out. Yeah. Yeah. So, at the moment I've got a collection of stories about deaf people at the football and sports story. So, I'm toying with the idea of my third show being about sport and sign language.

Luke:

Well, that's cool. And that's interesting. I spoke to Luke Benson recently about how he writes. He'll have bits that work independently, and then he realises there's a connection to them and creates a bigger routine out of it.

Ben:

I listened to this podcast with Ivan and he was sort of...

Luke:

Oh, Ivan Aristeguieta?

Ben:

Yeah.

How he would put the ideas into circles and bring it all together. That was quite inspiring, and I'm trying to follow that method as well now.

Luke:

I think it's a good brain activity process that too.

Ben:

A new little thing that I just worked on last night, a very, very new joke where I went and tried out at the open mic last night was I took a deaf guy to the football, or a deaf guy took me to the football as his interpreter, and it was the North Melbourne match. And he had full access to the clubrooms afterwards, and North Melbourne had just lost, as they always do, and he was very angry about it. And so, afterwards, we went up to all the players and he gave them a piece of his mind about what they should be doing, where should they be passing it, what sort of tactics they should be using. I had to interpret that.

I was the one actually berating these players after a game. And so, that situation writes jokes.

Luke:

Well, this reminds me of if you're interpreting someone who's on stage who's telling really bad jokes, do you just misinterpret on purpose what you're being told to do?

Ben:

Yeah, I do. I do explained that, “Look, honestly, no one's laughing. This is just terrible. I can see what he's trying to do. I can see what they're trying to do.” So, I interpret the tone of how the room's feeling rather than the way the comedian's giving it, because the deaf person can't hear what's going on in the rest of the room. Is everyone laughing uproariously or is everyone just going, "Ugh"? So, I give that impression as well.

Luke:

Actually, that reminds me of an anecdote you told me about the first time you had some deaf people come to a gig. They didn't find everything funny. And you had to explain to them… well, you can finish telling the story.

Ben:

Yeah, so it was actually the end of one of my shows and I saw a deaf person signing to their mate just going, "I didn't laugh at all the jokes, so it's not what I expected." And then they didn't realise that you don't laugh at every joke at a comedy show.

Luke:

I mean, some people do. I'm sure we've both had a show where everybody's laughing all the time, but it does happen.

Ben:

Yeah, it does happen. But at the same time, you are throwing out a range of jokes and everyone's different. And so, I wanted to explain to that person that that's how it works, but I didn't. I just kept my hands quietly in my pockets.

Luke:

I never thought of that phrase being used like that before. But yeah, I guess going to that idea of how the deaf community is engaging with the show, there has been interpreting at shows for a while but it still feels pretty new.

Ben:

It still feels a bit tagged on, a bit token almost. Especially since I've interpreted comedy shows when there's puns or where there's singalongs with the audience, or it's talking about music and you're like, "Eh, this isn't for the deaf, is it? You've just thrown me on without thinking about the content." But again, the deaf love of Ivan, I've talked about him a lot now. I've interpreted for him and he tells a great tale and they really enjoyed that.

Luke:

He's very expressive too.

Ben:

And talks about differences in language as well, which works with the deaf in difference with English and Auslan.

Luke:

That's a really good point. I've noticed that we've got about five minutes on the clock, so let's run through some coming attractions. You're coming to Ballarat next week April 2nd. That's for the BallaRatCat Comedy. So, people can come there and get a taste of you because you're doing a small spot there, but then you've also got your solo show there in Ballarat as well.

Ben:

Yes, yes. That's on the 24th.

Luke:

That's correct. That one's Welcome to the Auslan Jungle.

Ben:

Yep, which I will be doing from the 5th to the 19th of April in Melbourne at the Melbourne Comedy Festival. That's in Collingwood at Wheat, Wine and Whiskey, except for the 11th of April, which will be at the Wolfhound event space in Fitzroy. And I'm going to go there for that night because it's wheelchair accessible and I've had a lot of people in wheelchairs come to the show and they can't come to the Collingwood one. So, Fitzroy it is.

And once that's finished, back to Hobart for a bit and then off to the Sydney Comedy Festival in May 13th, 14th, and 15th of May. And then after that, the Brisbane Comedy Festival on the 21st, 22nd, 23rd, and 24th of May.

Luke:

Strewth, you're getting around.

Ben:

After that, I'm off to Gippsland on the 26th of June and Stratford on the 27th.

Luke:

Yeah, yeah. That's Deaf Bridges out in those locations. So, doing a few good shows, I think you just enjoy doing those shows because I know how much travel and how much work goes into all that sort of touring. And I can tell you, it's not a cheap process to book rooms, travel around, but you just have a passion for this.

Ben:

I do have a passion. And I'm going to say with my new show, Welcome to the Auslan Jungle, because I'll teach the audience sign language, at the end we all come together. At the end, throughout the show, we come together and we sing in an Auslan choir to pop songs. That is so much fun. I get to belt out some tunes and actually sign them on stage, it's fantastic. And I think the only way people would ever pay to see me sing is if I'm doing it quietly.

Luke:

You mentioned how some shows have singing or something and they haven't really thought their way through how that works for the deaf community, but you definitely have because you are building up to singing for the deaf community.

Ben:

Yeah, yeah. I do interpret a lot of the big bands that come down to Tassie.

Luke:

I have a memory of someone from the deaf community on television once talking about how they have a love of music because they can feel the vibrations.

Ben:

Yeah, it's a thing. Not all deaf get that, because everyone thinks that that's a thing that all deaf have to do, but some deaf can feel the vibrations and get in, but it's more about you're in that environment, there's people around you, dancing, you're included because there's an interpreter on stage. You feel the energy of the room or wherever you are and you can go and get drunk with everyone else. So, suddenly you're a part of society, you're a part of a music concert. There's more to a music concert than just the music. Yeah.

Luke:

I didn't know that. I'm such a nerd. Thanks, Ben. I'll catch you soon.

Ben:

Thank you, Luke. Cheers.

(Outro music)

Luke:

That was another great episode. To support this podcast, visit comedyvictoria.com.au or follow on the social media @comedyvic. You can track down myself, Luke Morris via @lukemorrisha. Listen to more music by Super Magic Hats who supply the intro, but don't take all this comedy analysis too seriously because as EB and Catherine White wrote, Humor can be dissected, as a fog can, but the thing dies in the process.

*Text edited slightly from audio for improved reading